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canaryinthemine said:
I understand your argument about "theoretical" companies. Upgrading and automating usually does involve layoffs........And more profit for the owner of that company. I don't know if you've ever heard the old anecdote about when Edsel Ford and Walter Reuther toured a newly re-tooled and automated Ford plant in the '60's.

Supposedly halfway through the tour, Edsel Ford turned to Walter Reuther and said: "Look at all these robots, Walter. I guess you're aware they don't pay Union dues." . .
And Mr.Reuther said: "They don't buy cars, either.."

It's the old argument-ender I have with my boss sometimes... ..."What's more important? People,...... or Business?" I can answer that in one word.......

By the way, I was self-employed for 9 years.........Thank you for the economics lesson on how to run a business,......... but I think I got that one on my own........
Click to expand...
Who signs the paychecks? The people who work there or the business that employs the people? One needs the other, but if there is no business, there is no need for the people.
By the way - If you were self employed for 9 years, why did you give it up? If you'd used better and smarter business practices your business would have been successful and still under your management.. Was your 9 year business under a union contract? Did you pay your help union scale and provide full benefits? Just wondering. No need to answer.
 
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canaryinthemine said:
In one of you previous posts you quoted Ben Franklin's old adage : " Every one is born ignorant, but one must work very hard to remain stupid."

Apparently, both you and Ben Franklin think I'm stupid...........One of you may be wrong......

However, being stupid means that I have to make up my own aphorisms......How about this one?

" You can't argue with Invincible Ignorance."
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No thing or no body is invincible.....BUT....another notable great American said :

"If at first you don't succeed, try again.....Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it ! W.C.Fields

On the subject of ignorance :

"Everyone has to climb Ignorant Mountain -
some people just choose to pitch a tent and live there". Unknown author
 
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henry j said:
No thing or no body is invincible.....BUT....another notable great American said :
"If at first you don't succeed, try again.....Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it ! W.C.Fields

On the subject of ignorance :
"Everyone has to climb Ignorant Mountain -
some people just choose to pitch a tent and live there". Unknown author
Click to expand...

Hah! I like the W.C.Fields quote......

Correct me if my impression is wrong, but I think you're of the opinion that People exist to serve Business.........

And, I'm taking the diametrically opposite opinion,........ that Business exists to serve People, .....And when a Business impacts badly on People, it has lost it's reason to exist.

There is a prevailing attitude that, even though businesses need people to start and initially operate,.........once automation steps in, you can ......... discard........ the people who helped that business start. The logical conclusion of that train of thought is that all businesses are designed to use people for a set period of time, then eliminate them.......to increase the profit margin for just one person,..,...... the business owner.

I think there's a matter of ethics involved,........ but, as you gave me a little story about a boss of yours,.......... I can give you a story about how I trip leased a load into a factory that had an active picket line that I wasn't made aware of. When I called the agent to tell him I had a moral problem about crossing a picket line,...... he told me : "Morals never put food on your plate. Go cross that picket line!"

Never forgot it.........Needless to say, I drug that load back 200 miles on my own dime, dropped it right in front of the dispatch window,...... and told that agent to come outside so I could shove my moral fist down his throat........

I believe some things are a little more important than profits......... like people, for instance...
 
canaryinthemine said:
Hah! I like the W.C.Fields quote......

Correct me if my impression is wrong, but I think you're of the opinion that People exist to serve Business.........

And, I'm taking the diametrically opposite opinion,........ that Business exists to serve People, .....And when a Business impacts badly on People, it has lost it's reason to exist.

There is a prevailing attitude that, even though businesses need people to start and initially operate,.........once automation steps in, you can ......... discard........ the people who helped that business start. The logical conclusion of that train of thought is that all businesses are designed to use people for a set period of time, then eliminate them.......to increase the profit margin for just one person,..,...... the business owner.

I think there's a matter of ethics involved,........ but, as you gave me a little story about a boss of yours,.......... I can give you a story about how I trip leased a load into a factory that had an active picket line that I wasn't made aware of. When I called the agent to tell him I had a moral problem about crossing a picket line,...... he told me : "Morals never put food on your plate. Go cross that picket line!"

Never forgot it.........Needless to say, I drug that load back 200 miles on my own dime, dropped it right in front of the dispatch window,...... and told that agent to come outside so I could shove my moral fist down his throat........

I believe some things are a little more important than profits......... like people, for instance...
Click to expand...
Your impression is wrong. I said (or meant to say) business needs people, both as customers and as employees. A business must show at least some profit to stay in business, to provide jobs,to pay it's bills, to meet the payroll and to satisfy stockholders (if they have any). People need at least a marginally successful business to provide a job - (for those that want to work). Those "jobs" only remain if a company remains profitable enough to stay out of the red at the end of each month. Those people that do not want to work, don't want or need any business to provide a paycheck. They just depend on taxpayers (both individual and business) to provide the tax money to the various Federal, state and local entitlement agencies for their monthly checks and trips to the food shelf. They think it's just free. It may be free to them, but somebody is paying for it. The taxpayers.
Businesses that can compete and stay at least marginally profitable provide more than just a paycheck. They provide a self confidence and self esteem to it's employees. They provide a work ethic example to others in their employees' families. They provide business and property taxes to the city, county and state. The wages paid out provide money to be spent at other local businesses. The business in turn owes a certain amount of loyalty to it's employees and a decent, fair wage which again, is only possible if the company turns a profit. Not all companies or company owners are wealthy. Some company owners are just out to screw their employees, but then some are just like their employees - barely getting by - fighting ever increasing taxes, costs and more government regulations. It has to be a partnership. Most companies nowadays both large and small) need automation to survive and compete. Example : Every office in the country has replaced countless typists, accountants, mathematicians, office managers and secretaries with personal computers. Boeing Aircraft used to have building full of designers and engineers. Now they have a fraction of that. Same with GM and Ford, CAD/CAM computers do most of the designing and calculations for the assembly line. That's progress and sometimes it ain't pretty and it ain't fair. It just is what it is. If it weren't for progress we'd still be using the telegraph instead of these amazing contraptions to communicate.
Automation and robotics definitely do harm some people, but they also create better, cleaner and better paying jobs for those that are willing to keep up.
I was a machinist by trade for 5 years in the late 60's after my Navy days. The metal lathes I worked on then were noisy, dirty, smelly and hot, causing the shop temps to rise to over 110 degrees in summer. The new computer operated CNC machines now are amazing. Those machinists that did not keep up with the new technology were replaced with those that were willing to re-train. Progress stops for no-one. Those that refuse to "get on the train" just get left behind.
 
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henry j said:
Your impression is wrong. I said (or meant to say) business needs people, both as customers and as employees. A business must show at least some profit to stay in business, to provide jobs,to pay it's bills, to meet the payroll and to satisfy stockholders (if they have any). People need at least a marginally successful business to provide a job - (for those that want to work). Those "jobs" only remain if a company remains profitable enough to stay out of the red at the end of each month. Those people that do not want to work, don't want or need any business to provide a paycheck. They just depend on taxpayers (both individual and business) to provide the tax money to the various Federal, state and local entitlement agencies for their monthly checks and trips to the food shelf. They think it's just free. It may be free to them, but somebody is paying for it. The taxpayers.
Businesses that can compete and stay at least marginally profitable provide more than just a paycheck. They provide a self confidence and self esteem to it's employees. They provide a work ethic example to others in their employees' families. They provide business and property taxes to the city, county and state. The wages paid out provide money to be spent at other local businesses. The business in turn owes a certain amount of loyalty to it's employees and a decent, fair wage which again, is only possible if the company turns a profit. Not all companies or company owners are wealthy. Some company owners are just out to screw their employees, but then some are just like their employees - barely getting by - fighting ever increasing taxes, costs and more government regulations. It has to be a partnership. Most companies nowadays both large and small) need automation to survive and compete. Example : Every office in the country has replaced countless typists, accountants, mathematicians, office managers and secretaries with personal computers. Boeing Aircraft used to have building full of designers and engineers. Now they have a fraction of that. Same with GM and Ford, CAD/CAM computers do most of the designing and calculations for the assembly line. That's progress and sometimes it ain't pretty and it ain't fair. It just is what it is. If it weren't for progress we'd still be using the telegraph instead of these amazing contraptions to communicate.
Automation and robotics definitely do harm some people, but they also create better, cleaner and better paying jobs for those that are willing to keep up.
I was a machinist by trade for 5 years in the late 60's after my Navy days. The metal lathes I worked on then were noisy, dirty, smelly and hot, causing the shop temps to rise to over 110 degrees in summer. The new computer operated CNC machines now are amazing. Those machinists that did not keep up with the new technology were replaced with those that were willing to re-train. Progress stops for no-one. Those that refuse to "get on the train" just get left behind.
Click to expand...


I understand the position about technology, but we now have a problem with an exponentially growing population that Milton and Rose Friedman never encompassed in their many treatises on economics.
A growing class,.......or sub-class..... of the labor pool has become expendable,....... and is starting to be used by large employers as a means to lower wages across the board.

This would be one of the reasons there are 11 million illegal immigrants here,...... with employers flouting E-Verify laws.

Roofers, gardeners, plastics plants, furniture plants, meat and poultry packing plants...... As truck drivers, we see the companies who are using an undocumented workforce to cut wages....... and increase profits for just the owner of the company.

This is happening globally....... there isn't a corporation that flies a national flag,...... they all fly one with a dollar sign....... or a euro, or deutschmark........

Couple that with exponentially increasing technology........ which also means more profit for just a few at the expense of many....... and what do you do with the......"surplus"........Population?

I mean, aside from starting a war and "eliminating" some of the problem?
 
canaryinthemine said:
I understand the position about technology, but we now have a problem with an exponentially growing population that Milton and Rose Friedman never encompassed in their many treatises on economics.
A growing class,.......or sub-class..... of the labor pool has become expendable,....... and is starting to be used by large employers as a means to lower wages across the board.

This would be one of the reasons there are 11 million illegal immigrants here,...... with employers flouting E-Verify laws.

Roofers, gardeners, plastics plants, furniture plants, meat and poultry packing plants...... As truck drivers, we see the companies who are using an undocumented workforce to cut wages....... and increase profits for just the owner of the company.

This is happening globally....... there isn't a corporation that flies a national flag,...... they all fly one with a dollar sign....... or a euro, or deutschmark........

Couple that with exponentially increasing technology........ which also means more profit for just a few at the expense of many....... and what do you do with the......"surplus"........Population?

I mean, aside from starting a war and "eliminating" some of the problem?
Click to expand...
E-verify has been on the books since 2010, but like so many laws, it has not been used much. Some states like CA even forbid the use of it. Only 4 states, AZ,MS,AL and SC require all employers, private and public, to use it. If it's a Federal Law, it should be used by all states, all the time, for ALL employers. Instead the passage of E-verify in July 2010 was used as a tool by the Dems to get more votes in the mid-term election. Obama had no intention of rigidly enforcing the E-verify laws. It was never mandated that employers MUST use it and MUST use only legal citizens of the US or those here on a legal work visa. If it were MANDATED to be used in all states on ALL employers in both the public and private sector, with strict enforcement with tough penalties on employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, millions of these illegals would not be here now taking jobs away from American workers that would otherwise have them. The presence of those 11 million illegals also directly influence the decline of wages in general in this country, especially in the unskilled job market. Due to so many employers simply ignoring E-verify, they even pay under the legal minimum wage, knowing the illegals will not complain or go to any Gov't agency about it. Look at the US map on the status of E-verify in each state (CA even bans the use of it entirely). Nearly every state has a different opinion on the use of it. Are we a single nation or have we become a conglomeration of 50 states that ignore Federal legislation entirely and just do as they please? If so, we are in trouble as a nation. I hope President Trump addresses this problem and soon MANDATES that ALL STATES and ALL employers must verify an employee's legal status. There is always going to be unskilled American workers. We must do whatever is necessary to provide jobs for them, and prosecute employers that use illegal workers instead. I understand why immigrants want to come here from Mexico and Central America, but we have to provide for OUR citizens first and foremost.
Until E-verify becomes mandatory in all states, and applies to ALL employers, greedy employers and politicians will choose to ignore it for THEIR OWN ADVANTAGE to pay lower wages and to gain more votes from the likely Democrat voters in the Hispanic community.
The "surplus population" of 11 million illegal immigrants shouldn't be here in the first place (especially those with a criminal record). The laws have been on the books for a long time that would have stopped or at least slowed the illegal "border jumpers" but Obama chose to pretend the problem didn't exist and ordering "catch and release" of those illegals that WERE apprehended. What happens "globally" should be secondary to what happens here in the USA. Now more than ever, we must protect our borders and strictly limit those that are allowed enter and those who become American citizens. It is a privilege to become an American, not a "right" of anybody from all parts of the world.
Even Mexico has strict laws governing those that enter their country illegally. Remember US Marine Sgt Andrew Tahmooressi, who spent 8 months in a Mexican prison?
 
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henry j said:
E-verify has been on the books since 2010, but like so many laws, it has not been used much. Some states like CA even forbid the use of it. Only 4 states, AZ,MS,AL and SC require all employers, private and public, to use it. If it's a Federal Law, it should be used by all states, all the time, for ALL employers. Instead the passage of E-verify in July 2010 was used as a tool by the Dems to get more votes in the mid-term election. Obama had no intention of rigidly enforcing the E-verify laws. It was never mandated that employers MUST use it and MUST use only legal citizens of the US or those here on a legal work visa. If it were MANDATED to be used in all states on ALL employers in both the public and private sector, with strict enforcement with tough penalties on employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, millions of these illegals would not be here now taking jobs away from American workers that would otherwise have them. The presence of those 11 million illegals also directly influence the decline of wages in general in this country, especially in the unskilled job market. Due to so many employers simply ignoring E-verify, they even pay under the legal minimum wage, knowing the illegals will not complain or go to any Gov't agency about it. Look at the US map on the status of E-verify in each state (CA even bans the use of it entirely). Nearly every state has a different opinion on the use of it. Are we a single nation or have we become a conglomeration of 50 states that ignore Federal legislation entirely and just do as they please? If so, we are in trouble as a nation. I hope President Trump addresses this problem and soon MANDATES that ALL STATES and ALL employers must verify an employee's legal status. There is always going to be unskilled American workers. We must do whatever is necessary to provide jobs for them, and prosecute employers that use illegal workers instead. I understand why immigrants want to come here from Mexico and Central America, but we have to provide for OUR citizens first and foremost.
Until E-verify becomes mandatory in all states, and applies to ALL employers, greedy employers and politicians will choose to ignore it for THEIR OWN ADVANTAGE to pay lower wages and to gain more votes from the likely Democrat voters in the Hispanic community.
The "surplus population" of 11 million illegal immigrants shouldn't be here in the first place (especially those with a criminal record). The laws have been on the books for a long time that would have stopped or at least slowed the illegal "border jumpers" but Obama chose to pretend the problem didn't exist and ordering "catch and release" of those illegals that WERE apprehended. What happens "globally" should be secondary to what happens here in the USA. Now more than ever, we must protect our borders and strictly limit those that are allowed enter and those who become American citizens. It is a privilege to become an American, not a "right" of anybody from all parts of the world.
Even Mexico has strict laws governing those that enter their country illegally. Remember US Marine Sgt Andrew Tahmooressi, who spent 8 months in a Mexican prison?
Click to expand...
So your saying in all these post that the current conservative movement will fix this mess of 8 years by the democrats?
 
mud said:
henry j, more members would read your posts, if they were a little shorter. Imo.
Click to expand...
I understand and I agree, but it's hard to make a valid and provable point on some complicated subjects with few words. I believe it's necessary to back up what I say with facts that actually exist. It has become too easy for news outlets to hide behind fake news articles by claiming "Anonymous sources" or "Confidential sources". News stories are not required to prove it was anything but made up by a so-called journalist's fantasy. That is just convenient abuse of their right to keep legitimate sources confidential. They claim to be keeping a source confidential when there is no source at all. Over the past couple years, several peoples lives have been ruined by fake news stories dreamed up by lying news people just trying to get their name on a story. Some of the media outlets have been sued over it and lost. Even when they lose in court, the damage has already been done. That is why so many ordinary people don't trust the MSM anymore.
 
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troubleman84 said:
So your saying in all these post that the current conservative movement will fix this mess of 8 years by the democrats?
Click to expand...
All the "current conservative movement" can do is try. If Hillary had been elected, the damage she was promising would have made any fix impossible.. The current "crybaby" Democrats in Washington are still trying to take America down. Just why, I don't understand. The greed for power, I guess. It IS their country, too. It seems they don't care about providing more jobs or security for their constituents who are LEGAL Americans. They seem to be more concerned about foreigners than Americans. Go figure ! If things can't be turned around in the next 2 - 4 years, it WILL BE too late. President Trump and his people are working hard to undo the damage done in the last 8 years in spite of the Democrats' crazy and childish attempts to keep America in a death spiral. President Trump and his carefully chosen "outsiders" are our last best hope to bring this country back.
 
henry j said:
I understand and I agree, but it's hard to make a valid and provable point on some complicated subjects with few words. I believe it's necessary to back up what I say with facts that actually exist. It has become too easy for news outlets to hide behind fake news articles by claiming "Anonymous sources" or "Confidential sources". News stories are not required to prove it was anything but made up by a so-called journalist's fantasy. That is just convenient abuse of their right to keep legitimate sources confidential. They claim to be keeping a source confidential when there is no source at all. Over the past couple years, several peoples lives have been ruined by fake news stories dreamed up by lying news people just trying to get their name on a story. Some of the media outlets have been sued over it and lost. Even when they lose in court, the damage has already been done. That is why so many ordinary people don't trust the MSM anymore.
Click to expand...
I'm forced to agree with you on that, henryj. CNN sometimes reminds me of The National Enquirer (sic)...on steroids.
 
henry j said:
All the "current conservative movement" can do is try. If Hillary had been elected, the damage she was promising would have made any fix impossible.. The current "crybaby" Democrats in Washington are still trying to take America down. Just why, I don't understand. The greed for power, I guess. It IS their country, too. It seems they don't care about providing more jobs or security for their constituents who are LEGAL Americans. They seem to be more concerned about foreigners than Americans. Go figure ! If things can't be turned around in the next 2 - 4 years, it WILL BE too late. President Trump and his people are working hard to undo the damage done in the last 8 years in spite of the Democrats' crazy and childish attempts to keep America in a death spiral. President Trump and his carefully chosen "outsiders" are our last best hope to bring this country back.
Click to expand...
It's all relative...the 'Pubs pissed and moaned relentlessly for 8 years, now it's the Dems turn. It's the political equivalent of the balance of nature.
 
canaryinthemine said:
I understand the position about technology, but we now have a problem with an exponentially growing population that Milton and Rose Friedman never encompassed in their many treatises on economics.
A growing class,.......or sub-class..... of the labor pool has become expendable,....... and is starting to be used by large employers as a means to lower wages across the board.

This would be one of the reasons there are 11 million illegal immigrants here,...... with employers flouting E-Verify laws.

Roofers, gardeners, plastics plants, furniture plants, meat and poultry packing plants...... As truck drivers, we see the companies who are using an undocumented workforce to cut wages....... and increase profits for just the owner of the company.

This is happening globally....... there isn't a corporation that flies a national flag,...... they all fly one with a dollar sign....... or a euro, or deutschmark........

Couple that with exponentially increasing technology........ which also means more profit for just a few at the expense of many....... and what do you do with the......"surplus"........Population?

I mean, aside from starting a war and "eliminating" some of the problem?
Click to expand...
I see them lowering wages and increasing hours for everyone around here whether they use undocumented workers or not. There will always be someone willing to work so they can feed their family. Its just what desperate people do.
The corporate world intends to do away with us faulty humans and replace us with machines. Its the way technology advances and there's not a whole lot we can do about it. The future is not bright.... well except for the glint of the sun off of the solar panels. And I even heard one pundit say we needed to automate the installation of those.
 
Trucker 206 said:
It's all relative...the 'Pubs pissed and moaned relentlessly for 8 years, now it's the Dems turn. It's the political equivalent of the balance of nature.
Click to expand...
I agree, but an awful lot of people, including me, are just sick of it. The long-time career politicians are just worried about THEIR political party and THEIR political career which simply boils down to MORE MONEY for them. Very few politicians give a rat's butt about anybody but their own ego and bank account. I believe Trump is losing money by being President. He may have a big ego, but name any President that hasn't (especially our last one). Trump is already a multi- billionaire and is not beholding to anybody to repay big-time campaign contributors with political favors. His entire campaign cost was roughly $50 million while Hillary's was real close to $1 billion. He's refusing to take any of the $569,000 per year salary and expenses paid to any POTUS. He will take a total of $1.00 a year. He's a very successful businessman that has the know-how to get things done. His first 4 weeks in office have proven that - and the Dems hate him for it. It makes them look bad.
I hope the Dems stop the moaning soon. They lost. Get over it for the good of the country. They keep forgetting they took a vow to work for the common good of ALL Americans - not just themselves. If they keep this up, we all suffer. Trump is keeping his campaign promises while the Dems can't stand it. They never heard of a politician actually trying to keep campaign promises.
 
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